Love everything you wrote. A little history. I have been a part of the Vineyard and attended the Vineyard Bible Institute. Have prayed and ministered to people and am a Pastor myself... ordained with the C&MA and part of them for the past 14 years.
I do have some thoughts of discussion. No doubt the Holy Spirit leads us. As we reflect back on scripture, there are various times as well when they minister to people and as you know does not explicitly state they were led by the Spirit. We can derive Peter and John were led by the Spirit in chapter 3, yet nothing explicitly states such. In Acts, chapter 9 with the two incidents with Peter, it does not state there was a leading of the Spirit. Dr. James Dunn states this in his commentary on the Acts of the Apostles: “the almost invariable manifestation of the Spirit in Acts is inspired speech (2.4; 4.8; 6.10; 10.45–46; 13.2, 9; 18.25; 19.6; 20.23; 21.4, 11), whereas, somewhat surprisingly, the miracles of Acts are never attributed to the Spirit as such (though note 10.38).” And yet I think of Galatians 3:5: “Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?”
Of course, we know the Holy Spirit is behind all things since our new birth (Titus 3:4-7). Yet Dr. Dunn makes a lot of sense. And as we look at the Acts of the Apostles in chapter 3 as an example, we do not really find something so explicitly like, “And Peter being led or having the gift of healing (or miraculous power) said to the man at the temple gate…”
When ministering to people, there is not always time to wait and be led, though of course it is cool (great) when that occurs.
In terms of John 5:19, I do wonder if we have turned that into something more than it is. When you and I read John 5:19, the larger context of that gospel also includes the religious leaders confronting whether Christ was of the Father (equal with God, the Father). It is throughout most of the gospel that we hear, “He is in the Father and the Father is in Him” type of sayings (John 14:10). But as we recall… in John 5:18, they did not like that Christ made Himself equal with the Father. Thus, the words in John 5:19.
John 5:19 is not an indication of limitation… as if Christ could only heal some or only those whom the Father wants or choses. And using the earlier piece of John, is chapter 5 with the other sick folk enough context to support John 5:19? Of course, Christ was not able to get to all literally. But that is why He sends out the twelve and seventy-two to heal, free and minister to people.
So, is it really a matter of “waiting” to see who God wants to heal? Have we added something in there that is not in the greater context of that passage and the context of the New Testament as a whole? If there was a need, Christ or the disciples went and met that need… plain and simple. Jesus was saying He is doing what the Father is doing or would do and not anything contrary. Christ is basically just saying, “I am moved by how strong my Fathers’ love is and I don’t plan on doing anything outside of that.”
In John 5:20, He literally states, “For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does.” Jesus is clearly grateful and marveled with how his Father’s heart is, while even knowing that He, the Son, is of the Trinity.
Yet we must recollect and take into consideration that He as the God/man is also clearly displaying (exemplifying) sonship/daughtership and how it’s supposed to be. Christ is our example. He models for us what this is supposed to be. John 5:21 makes it very succinct and we see the evidence in various healings in the gospels. “For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.” (John 5:21). Does not Jesus give life (healing and freedom) to many people. Thus, again it does not seem John 5:19 is limitation. Is it also just about leading or again the wider context up above?
I know and it seems some can then state, “there it is, ‘to whom He will’ (v21) without catching the gist of the entire point. The religious leaders are seeking to contradict and dictate what should be done (as we observe throughout scriptures in the gospels) and in many ways what Jesus should be doing. So, these are some thoughts.
Vincent, thank you so much for your thoughtful comment. I agree with you that our use of John 5:19 can result in (my words here) a limiter on our action in terms of ministry because we focus so much on trying to discern what the Father is doing that we end up doing very little. So many good points in your comment deserve thinking through if we are serious about ministry with Jesus as His disciples. However, I'm trying to reach a different point in this book. The next chapter (chapter 12) will try to dig deeper into what my friend Todd Volker has called my "incarnational view of ministry." I look forward to your thoughts on that chapter, too.
Here's something from my notes that I haven't yet included anywhere in my blog or this book (I'm trying as hard as I can to trim and cut so I don't end up with another seminary-level book that nobody will bother to read or listen to). This started me rethinking my assumptions about the implications and application of John 5:19, etc.
--------------------
The impetus for this study is the question, “Why were Jesus’ disciples able to minister in power before they were filled with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost?” The answer to this question highlights a fundamental understanding of our relationship to Jesus in the Holy Spirit.
I have always assumed, based on the experience of Jesus and the post-resurrection church at Pentecost, that the coming (or outpouring, baptism, infilling, etc.) of the Holy Spirit was a necessary precondition or prerequisite for the initiation of power for ministry in New Testament believers.
According to the gospel records, Jesus didn’t do signs and wonders or announce the Kingdom in the power of the Holy Spirit until after the Spirit came upon him when John baptized him in the Jordan River (Matthew 3:16). Likewise, it was not until after the Spirit was poured out on the disciples at Pentecost, fulfilling the prophetic promise of Joel (2:28), that all the believers began to experience God’s powerful presence and to preach and minister in God’s power.
But an odd story element in the Gospel narratives caused me to look again at what it means to participate with Jesus in the work of the Holy Spirit: the disciples operated with power before Pentecost, and even before Jesus’ breathed on them and said, “receive the Holy Spirit” (John 20:22). For example,
Luke 9:1-6 (ESV) Sending out the 12: And he called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases, and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal…And they departed and went through the villages, preaching the gospel and healing everywhere.
Luke 10:1-9 (ESV) Sending out the 70(72): After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them on ahead of him, two by two, into every town and place where he himself was about to go…Whenever you enter a town and they receive you, eat what is set before you. Heal the sick in it and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’
If the experience of Spirit baptism (or any of its synonyms) was not a necessary precondition to minister in God’s power, how do we understand these incidents? Perhaps we can start with the observation that the common factor between the disciples' experiences before and after Pentecost was the presence of Jesus himself with them.
Before Pentecost, Jesus, upon whom the Holy Spirit had rested (Luke 3:22), was physically present with the disciples. They spent time with Him, heard his voice, and responded to the words He spoke to them. Jesus (physically with them) authorized the disciples with his own authority (Matthew 10:1) to go and do what he had been doing; that is, he delegated His work to them. They obeyed him, and God’s power backed them up.
After Pentecost, the promised Holy Spirit was poured out on the church. God’s power was released first upon the disciples and then through them to others. It is also important to note that the Spirit poured out upon the disciples is identified as the Spirit of Jesus, who now lives within all disciples. As before Pentecost, the disciples continued with Jesus’ ministry, and the power of God backed them up.
Yeah, really cool Ron. I have heard and engaged with others in those thoughts you mentioned as well. I somewhat go back to what Dr. James Dunn noted above. The manifestation in the Acts of the Apostles is more linked or seems to be more linked to inspired speech while the miracles do not seem to be so. Of course, that is not to take from the Holy Spirit at all. I really wonder the same thing as you regarding the above which you mentioned.
I like discussions like this. And I appreciate you chatting with me.
I have always connected or thought about what you stated above more back to Mark 1:15. The kingdom of God is already at hand since Jesus inaugurated it here in Mark 1:15. Obviously, as you know His dominion and rule are already in place over sickness, darkness, disease, and oppression. Those powers are already broken.
Some other thoughts for a moment please. When we minister to people, is God up heaven (if we go back to… the only doing what the Father is doing principle for a moment) with something like faucet valves and being like, “well, I will open freedom from oppression on this one; yet I will not on this other one.” Again, this is just discussing this out loud for a moment… so please bear with me. Yet when we look at Mark 1:15, from that moment forward it is always as if His dominion and rule are already in place whereby the power of sickness, darkness, disease are already broken and now we go others in that knowledge and understanding (of course, the Holy Spirit can lead or provide specific Words of Knowledge… yet we do not always see such in scripture)… and our simple part is to decree to the person or persons, “God is here now and to free (heal) you now… Jane, I release you from this oppression.” “Joe, I address your lungs to breath freely.” Well, you get the idea with such examples.
Ron, these things help me. I mean man’s forgiveness and salvation; God is not up there deciding if He should forgive someone… He already decided such in Christ’s redemptive work. Dr. Herman Ridderbos (The Coming of the Kingdom) also noted, the kingdom is redemption. When it comes to healing and freedom that people need, do we just step out and offer/bring the freedom of the kingdom that is already in place? Or do we wait and see if God wants to do something or when and what God wants to do?
Love everything you wrote. A little history. I have been a part of the Vineyard and attended the Vineyard Bible Institute. Have prayed and ministered to people and am a Pastor myself... ordained with the C&MA and part of them for the past 14 years.
I do have some thoughts of discussion. No doubt the Holy Spirit leads us. As we reflect back on scripture, there are various times as well when they minister to people and as you know does not explicitly state they were led by the Spirit. We can derive Peter and John were led by the Spirit in chapter 3, yet nothing explicitly states such. In Acts, chapter 9 with the two incidents with Peter, it does not state there was a leading of the Spirit. Dr. James Dunn states this in his commentary on the Acts of the Apostles: “the almost invariable manifestation of the Spirit in Acts is inspired speech (2.4; 4.8; 6.10; 10.45–46; 13.2, 9; 18.25; 19.6; 20.23; 21.4, 11), whereas, somewhat surprisingly, the miracles of Acts are never attributed to the Spirit as such (though note 10.38).” And yet I think of Galatians 3:5: “Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?”
Of course, we know the Holy Spirit is behind all things since our new birth (Titus 3:4-7). Yet Dr. Dunn makes a lot of sense. And as we look at the Acts of the Apostles in chapter 3 as an example, we do not really find something so explicitly like, “And Peter being led or having the gift of healing (or miraculous power) said to the man at the temple gate…”
When ministering to people, there is not always time to wait and be led, though of course it is cool (great) when that occurs.
In terms of John 5:19, I do wonder if we have turned that into something more than it is. When you and I read John 5:19, the larger context of that gospel also includes the religious leaders confronting whether Christ was of the Father (equal with God, the Father). It is throughout most of the gospel that we hear, “He is in the Father and the Father is in Him” type of sayings (John 14:10). But as we recall… in John 5:18, they did not like that Christ made Himself equal with the Father. Thus, the words in John 5:19.
John 5:19 is not an indication of limitation… as if Christ could only heal some or only those whom the Father wants or choses. And using the earlier piece of John, is chapter 5 with the other sick folk enough context to support John 5:19? Of course, Christ was not able to get to all literally. But that is why He sends out the twelve and seventy-two to heal, free and minister to people.
So, is it really a matter of “waiting” to see who God wants to heal? Have we added something in there that is not in the greater context of that passage and the context of the New Testament as a whole? If there was a need, Christ or the disciples went and met that need… plain and simple. Jesus was saying He is doing what the Father is doing or would do and not anything contrary. Christ is basically just saying, “I am moved by how strong my Fathers’ love is and I don’t plan on doing anything outside of that.”
In John 5:20, He literally states, “For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does.” Jesus is clearly grateful and marveled with how his Father’s heart is, while even knowing that He, the Son, is of the Trinity.
Yet we must recollect and take into consideration that He as the God/man is also clearly displaying (exemplifying) sonship/daughtership and how it’s supposed to be. Christ is our example. He models for us what this is supposed to be. John 5:21 makes it very succinct and we see the evidence in various healings in the gospels. “For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.” (John 5:21). Does not Jesus give life (healing and freedom) to many people. Thus, again it does not seem John 5:19 is limitation. Is it also just about leading or again the wider context up above?
I know and it seems some can then state, “there it is, ‘to whom He will’ (v21) without catching the gist of the entire point. The religious leaders are seeking to contradict and dictate what should be done (as we observe throughout scriptures in the gospels) and in many ways what Jesus should be doing. So, these are some thoughts.
Vincent, thank you so much for your thoughtful comment. I agree with you that our use of John 5:19 can result in (my words here) a limiter on our action in terms of ministry because we focus so much on trying to discern what the Father is doing that we end up doing very little. So many good points in your comment deserve thinking through if we are serious about ministry with Jesus as His disciples. However, I'm trying to reach a different point in this book. The next chapter (chapter 12) will try to dig deeper into what my friend Todd Volker has called my "incarnational view of ministry." I look forward to your thoughts on that chapter, too.
Here's something from my notes that I haven't yet included anywhere in my blog or this book (I'm trying as hard as I can to trim and cut so I don't end up with another seminary-level book that nobody will bother to read or listen to). This started me rethinking my assumptions about the implications and application of John 5:19, etc.
--------------------
The impetus for this study is the question, “Why were Jesus’ disciples able to minister in power before they were filled with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost?” The answer to this question highlights a fundamental understanding of our relationship to Jesus in the Holy Spirit.
I have always assumed, based on the experience of Jesus and the post-resurrection church at Pentecost, that the coming (or outpouring, baptism, infilling, etc.) of the Holy Spirit was a necessary precondition or prerequisite for the initiation of power for ministry in New Testament believers.
According to the gospel records, Jesus didn’t do signs and wonders or announce the Kingdom in the power of the Holy Spirit until after the Spirit came upon him when John baptized him in the Jordan River (Matthew 3:16). Likewise, it was not until after the Spirit was poured out on the disciples at Pentecost, fulfilling the prophetic promise of Joel (2:28), that all the believers began to experience God’s powerful presence and to preach and minister in God’s power.
But an odd story element in the Gospel narratives caused me to look again at what it means to participate with Jesus in the work of the Holy Spirit: the disciples operated with power before Pentecost, and even before Jesus’ breathed on them and said, “receive the Holy Spirit” (John 20:22). For example,
Luke 9:1-6 (ESV) Sending out the 12: And he called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases, and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal…And they departed and went through the villages, preaching the gospel and healing everywhere.
Luke 10:1-9 (ESV) Sending out the 70(72): After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them on ahead of him, two by two, into every town and place where he himself was about to go…Whenever you enter a town and they receive you, eat what is set before you. Heal the sick in it and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’
If the experience of Spirit baptism (or any of its synonyms) was not a necessary precondition to minister in God’s power, how do we understand these incidents? Perhaps we can start with the observation that the common factor between the disciples' experiences before and after Pentecost was the presence of Jesus himself with them.
Before Pentecost, Jesus, upon whom the Holy Spirit had rested (Luke 3:22), was physically present with the disciples. They spent time with Him, heard his voice, and responded to the words He spoke to them. Jesus (physically with them) authorized the disciples with his own authority (Matthew 10:1) to go and do what he had been doing; that is, he delegated His work to them. They obeyed him, and God’s power backed them up.
After Pentecost, the promised Holy Spirit was poured out on the church. God’s power was released first upon the disciples and then through them to others. It is also important to note that the Spirit poured out upon the disciples is identified as the Spirit of Jesus, who now lives within all disciples. As before Pentecost, the disciples continued with Jesus’ ministry, and the power of God backed them up.
Thanks in advance for your discussion.
Yeah, really cool Ron. I have heard and engaged with others in those thoughts you mentioned as well. I somewhat go back to what Dr. James Dunn noted above. The manifestation in the Acts of the Apostles is more linked or seems to be more linked to inspired speech while the miracles do not seem to be so. Of course, that is not to take from the Holy Spirit at all. I really wonder the same thing as you regarding the above which you mentioned.
I like discussions like this. And I appreciate you chatting with me.
I have always connected or thought about what you stated above more back to Mark 1:15. The kingdom of God is already at hand since Jesus inaugurated it here in Mark 1:15. Obviously, as you know His dominion and rule are already in place over sickness, darkness, disease, and oppression. Those powers are already broken.
Some other thoughts for a moment please. When we minister to people, is God up heaven (if we go back to… the only doing what the Father is doing principle for a moment) with something like faucet valves and being like, “well, I will open freedom from oppression on this one; yet I will not on this other one.” Again, this is just discussing this out loud for a moment… so please bear with me. Yet when we look at Mark 1:15, from that moment forward it is always as if His dominion and rule are already in place whereby the power of sickness, darkness, disease are already broken and now we go others in that knowledge and understanding (of course, the Holy Spirit can lead or provide specific Words of Knowledge… yet we do not always see such in scripture)… and our simple part is to decree to the person or persons, “God is here now and to free (heal) you now… Jane, I release you from this oppression.” “Joe, I address your lungs to breath freely.” Well, you get the idea with such examples.
Ron, these things help me. I mean man’s forgiveness and salvation; God is not up there deciding if He should forgive someone… He already decided such in Christ’s redemptive work. Dr. Herman Ridderbos (The Coming of the Kingdom) also noted, the kingdom is redemption. When it comes to healing and freedom that people need, do we just step out and offer/bring the freedom of the kingdom that is already in place? Or do we wait and see if God wants to do something or when and what God wants to do?